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shivverOne of the big debates in fandom circles is about this line from the Toymaker:
I made a jigsaw out of your history.
A lot of people are upset, saying that RTD meant it to give himself license to change anything he wants. He's going to go undo the Timeless Child, for example. (Which doesn't make sense to me, since in the previous two episodes that the Doctor is wrestling with that; I think RTD has made it clear that it stands.)
I don't think so. The full line is
I made a jigsaw out of your history. Did you like it?
It's already happened - that's obvious from the second sentence. When I first heard that line, it reminded me of Delirium and Mazikeen, the half-faced demon, in The Sandman. (Comics; I haven't seen the TV show.) Mazikeen stops Delirium from entering Lucifer's nightclub, and Delirium says,
If you don't let me in, I will turn you into a demon half-face waitress night-club lady with a crush on her boss, and I'll make it so you've been that from the beginning of time to now and you'll never ever know if you were anything else and it will itch inside your head worse than little bugses.
Totally one of the coolest concepts, but that's beside the point. I think this is what the Toymaker was saying, that he already did turn the Doctor's history into a jigsaw puzzle, and the Doctor (and the rest of the universe) doesn't know if it was ever any other way.
The implication of this, considering the connotation of using the word "jigsaw" here that it's difficult/impossible to fit it all back together properly, is that everything in the show is true - the Toymaker deliberately made it contradictory and irreconcilable, but it all happened and you can take what you want from it. Did the Brigadier retire from UNIT in 1976 or did UNIT get formed in 1979? Yes. Did the Doctor choose the TARDIS, or did the TARDIS choose the Doctor, or did Clara tell the Doctor which TARDIS to choose? Yes. Pick and choose what you want for your purpose, because it all happened.
I love this idea. As a canon writer, I'll still try to stick to whatever media canon I can find (because that's the fun in it for me) but this opens a lot more possibilities. It also encourages inclusion of the expanded universe; audios, novels, and comics can now be just as "true" as the TV show. (And this thought led me to reconsidering a half-written story woven around "Supremacy of the Cybermen" that I'd discarded after the "The Timeless Children" did the same thing, except that "Supremacy" did it so much better. So now I'm working on that, because they're both true!)
(Side note: While discussing this idea, my husband commented that he read about the original idea (about RTD giving himself license) on Reddit or some other forum, and that the fandom in those places is toxic. He saw many posts where someone would express their idea and the replies were full of rage about how that's wrong and this is the right thing, and since "The Giggle" is on everyone's mind right now, most of the rage is directed at discussions about that episode. See the irony? That was exactly what "The Giggle" was all about, the toxic atmosphere when everyone thinks they're right and thinks they have to win.
It also reminded me of Gallifrey One and its inclusivity. I remember, the first time we attended was in the middle of Twelve's run, and I was sitting with a group of random people talking about the show. Most of them liked Twelve's episodes, but I said that while I like Twelve himself, I didn't like his stories or Clara and explained why, and they all listened and discussed it with me. No anger, no dismissal of the "outsider". Gally has always been DW fandom at its best.)
Edit: Here's RTD's commentary on the line:
Here's what RTD actually said:
Here's the moment where the Toymaker says 'I made a jigsaw out of your history', which again is part of the loosening of the rules. The Doctor first - you know, was he half human when he was Paul McGann? You know, is he a Timeless Child? It just relaxes the rules to say he is whoever you want him to be. That could be the Toymaker's puzzle. That could be inferred, or it's all true, and it is all true, but it just opens up the canon a bit, you know?
And to me, that supports my view - that everything that we've seen so far is as true as you want it to be - more than it's "This allows RTD to change everything."
I made a jigsaw out of your history.
A lot of people are upset, saying that RTD meant it to give himself license to change anything he wants. He's going to go undo the Timeless Child, for example. (Which doesn't make sense to me, since in the previous two episodes that the Doctor is wrestling with that; I think RTD has made it clear that it stands.)
I don't think so. The full line is
I made a jigsaw out of your history. Did you like it?
It's already happened - that's obvious from the second sentence. When I first heard that line, it reminded me of Delirium and Mazikeen, the half-faced demon, in The Sandman. (Comics; I haven't seen the TV show.) Mazikeen stops Delirium from entering Lucifer's nightclub, and Delirium says,
If you don't let me in, I will turn you into a demon half-face waitress night-club lady with a crush on her boss, and I'll make it so you've been that from the beginning of time to now and you'll never ever know if you were anything else and it will itch inside your head worse than little bugses.
Totally one of the coolest concepts, but that's beside the point. I think this is what the Toymaker was saying, that he already did turn the Doctor's history into a jigsaw puzzle, and the Doctor (and the rest of the universe) doesn't know if it was ever any other way.
The implication of this, considering the connotation of using the word "jigsaw" here that it's difficult/impossible to fit it all back together properly, is that everything in the show is true - the Toymaker deliberately made it contradictory and irreconcilable, but it all happened and you can take what you want from it. Did the Brigadier retire from UNIT in 1976 or did UNIT get formed in 1979? Yes. Did the Doctor choose the TARDIS, or did the TARDIS choose the Doctor, or did Clara tell the Doctor which TARDIS to choose? Yes. Pick and choose what you want for your purpose, because it all happened.
I love this idea. As a canon writer, I'll still try to stick to whatever media canon I can find (because that's the fun in it for me) but this opens a lot more possibilities. It also encourages inclusion of the expanded universe; audios, novels, and comics can now be just as "true" as the TV show. (And this thought led me to reconsidering a half-written story woven around "Supremacy of the Cybermen" that I'd discarded after the "The Timeless Children" did the same thing, except that "Supremacy" did it so much better. So now I'm working on that, because they're both true!)
(Side note: While discussing this idea, my husband commented that he read about the original idea (about RTD giving himself license) on Reddit or some other forum, and that the fandom in those places is toxic. He saw many posts where someone would express their idea and the replies were full of rage about how that's wrong and this is the right thing, and since "The Giggle" is on everyone's mind right now, most of the rage is directed at discussions about that episode. See the irony? That was exactly what "The Giggle" was all about, the toxic atmosphere when everyone thinks they're right and thinks they have to win.
It also reminded me of Gallifrey One and its inclusivity. I remember, the first time we attended was in the middle of Twelve's run, and I was sitting with a group of random people talking about the show. Most of them liked Twelve's episodes, but I said that while I like Twelve himself, I didn't like his stories or Clara and explained why, and they all listened and discussed it with me. No anger, no dismissal of the "outsider". Gally has always been DW fandom at its best.)
Edit: Here's RTD's commentary on the line:
Here's what RTD actually said:
Here's the moment where the Toymaker says 'I made a jigsaw out of your history', which again is part of the loosening of the rules. The Doctor first - you know, was he half human when he was Paul McGann? You know, is he a Timeless Child? It just relaxes the rules to say he is whoever you want him to be. That could be the Toymaker's puzzle. That could be inferred, or it's all true, and it is all true, but it just opens up the canon a bit, you know?
And to me, that supports my view - that everything that we've seen so far is as true as you want it to be - more than it's "This allows RTD to change everything."
no subject
Date: 2023-12-12 06:59 pm (UTC)I like your thoughts. It kind of reminds me of Peri and the Piscon Paradox; where the writer essentially said “ Yep, I know what happened in the Tv show. NB didn’t like it, so let’s fix that and say everything happened and more”
no subject
Date: 2023-12-12 07:17 pm (UTC)Here's the moment where the Toymaker says 'I made a jigsaw out of your history', which again is part of the loosening of the rules. The Doctor first - you know, was he half human when he was Paul McGann? You know, is he a Timeless Child? It just relaxes the rules to say he is whoever you want him to be. That could be the Toymaker's puzzle. That could be inferred, or it's all true, and it is all true, but it just opens up the canon a bit, you know?
And to me, that supports my view - that everything that we've seen so far is as true as you want it to be - more than it's "This allows RTD to change everything."
I'm putting this in the main post.
no subject
Date: 2023-12-12 07:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-12-13 11:23 pm (UTC)Well - if we take the long view, we can use that idea to handwave the entirely of canon, such that it is.
Old skool writers were never interested in canon-keeping. They counted on one and done showing and never having reruns. So if we now retcon that time (canon) was always broken (something something temporal mechanics) everything makes sense. In that everything can't *ever* make sense.
If that makes sense. LOL
RTD should well know this as an old skool fanboy.
Also since it's been made clear than anything the BBC licenses is considered canon, we have to deal with Big Finish, the comics, the storybooks and the novels (New Adventures' looms anyone? LOL). Yeah -it's a mess.
This is as good a canon explanation as any. Without having seen the ep, I kind of like it as a handwave tbh.
no subject
Date: 2023-12-15 09:48 pm (UTC)Yes, I really like the idea of something in the show that explains why nothing (and everything) makes sense. Without spoiling anything, the Toymaker is entirely alien, so it makes sense to him, and that's all the Doctor and we need to know.